A Few Questions Now That I Have One Of These In My Life

"Kailand09" (kailand09) 12/01/2014 at 19:23 • Filed to: None

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Maybe it is because I'm still learning the finesse, but I'm not sure if I'm doing a couple things wrong.

From a stop, if I'm starting I go fairly slowly letting the clutch out. Now I don't take ages to do it, but seconds for sure. A co-worker mentioned you should never hear the engine note dip down to that lower tone as it engages (meaning the engine starts to get taxed and the clutch slips a little). Is this true? Don't you kind of have to slip the clutch a little bit to start off without jerking all over the place or launching?

Second- while uphill and stopped at a light, I have heard 2 techniques. The first, to find the point at which your gas and your clutch allow the car to remain still, with the clutch partially engaged and the engine slightly above idle, then take off when you can. The second, to just use your brake pedal and allow the car to roll back a tad while engaging as usual. Which is correct???

I've learned you really hear a ton of opinions and it becomes confusing what is correct.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:27

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The clutch will slip a little as it engages on a smooth start. As long as you arent building a lot of revs before you clear the clutch properly you'll be fine.

As for hill start I hold it on the handbrake then release it as the car reaches biting point. I dont like to hold it with the clutch slipping since it increases wear and can be a bit tiring on a long journey in traffic.

jvirgs drives a Subaru > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:29

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as far as #2 is concerned I wouldn't do the clutch partially in thing as it sounds like it would just destroy a clutch. Id just hold the brake and let the car roll a bit as you gas and clutch out. Or if there is some assclown on your bumper, hold the e-brake and release as the car is ready to move forward.

crowmolly > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:31

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The first, to find the point at which your gas and your clutch allow the car to remain still, with the clutch partially engaged and the engine slightly above idle, then take off when you can.

This can fry your clutch. Do not do it.

Dsscats > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:37

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It's not all black and white. You'll get the hang of it and figure out your own technique.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > crowmolly 12/01/2014 at 19:40

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it'll only fry the clutch if he's revving the tits off or sitting at the biting point for minutes at a time.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:41

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From a stop, it's okay to let the clutch slip a tad. It's necessary if you are trying to drive smoothly. Don't worry about it, but once engaged, get off the clutch. DON'T RIDE IT.

On a hill, just hold the brake. You are going to roll back. Sometimes, if I'm stopping on a hill, I leave myself plenty of room ahead. Once someone comes up behind me, I intentionally let the car roll back a few inches, then move up a foot or two. This is to let them know that I need room when the light turns. They usually don't inch up behind me. But, if you're in a pickle, just hop off the brakes and onto the gas. BTW, that clutch/gas method is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. That's nonsense. The clutch and engine are for making the car move. Brakes are made for stopping, and that's just what they'll do.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 12/01/2014 at 19:43

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As long as you aren't building a lot of revs before you clear the clutch properly you'll be fine.

DANGER!!! Will result in burnout (if done properly)

whoarder is tellurium > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:43

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Theres a magical point you'll find where you can modulate enough throttle to feed in the clutch and it'll take off with minimal slippage.

Kinda like what your friend said, the clutch will slip to engage regardless of what you do, but the goal is to minimize the slip and get a solid engagement from the engine without lugging.

Second part, as others have said, if its bad enough use the handbrake to just barely hold the car. You may have to give a little more clutch slip than average but that's because its a hill. Sometimes there is no choice.

crowmolly > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 12/01/2014 at 19:44

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It probably won't kill the clutch outright but it can certainly take life off of it, maybe overheating it to where it won't grab temporarily. Either way not a good plan.

Kailand09 > crowmolly 12/01/2014 at 19:45

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Thank you. This was what I was thinking, sounds like unnecessary wear to me.

Leadbull > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:46

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Wat

I make the transition from brake to throttle quickly/smoothly enough that it only rolls back just a nudge; I've never felt the need to use a handbrake in traffic. I do the clutch-gas-balance-thingy sometimes, but I try to minimize that.

JGrabowMSt > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:48

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Screw it, I let the clutch slip a little bit all the time, for good reason.

1) Smoother starts. Also, it's called feathering the clutch. Is it good for the clutch? Just don't do it excessively.

2) Instead of letting the noise change, don't dip below idle. My DD idles at about 800rpm, so when I start, I keep the rpms around 1000-1200 max. There's no reason to rev super high to get the car rolling. It's one thing to launch at a drag strip, but in traffic or just driving around, no point.

When stopping on a hill, always use the brakes. It prevents the risk of stalling for any reason in your control. When you go to start again, learn the clutch grab point, and slowly let the clutch up to the grab point, and then start to give it enough gas to move up the hill, but don't just jump on it. It takes a lot of practice, but eventually you'll be able to get it. Practice in empty parking lots, it's what I did for a long long time.

I own dead car brands only > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 19:48

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Im curious, do you rely on your ears more than anything when operating a manual?

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > crowmolly 12/01/2014 at 19:54

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nah, if you do it right it's sitting at the biting point for a fraction of a second and is the safest way to hill start. I do it frequently and I still get a good 80-100,000km's out of a clutch.

learn how to rev match properly and you can make any deficit up pretty quickly.

Übel > Leadbull 12/01/2014 at 19:57

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This. Once you've got the hang of driving stick, you should really never have to use the handbrake to do a hill start.

Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:05

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Assuming you have an ST from the picture, the clutch can be a little difficult at times. The clutch grips hard and somewhat suddenly so your revs might dip a good amount at first. The manual says not to let revs dip under 1250 or the engine could lug, so you should try to keep it above that. Just slip the clutch as much as you need to for a smooth start and give it enough gas to keep your revs ~1500. You will improve and slip the clutch less as your feel for the engine\transmission improves.

This is what I do although I'm no pro.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:08

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If you are paranoid and have one of the STs or any other car with a lot of torque - you can often slowly let put the clutch with no throttle in first. My FiST will creep around on level ground in first with no problem. It takes some work but if you want practice, try that first.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:17

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42

thebigbossyboss > Übel 12/01/2014 at 20:19

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However, do not forget to use the hand brake on a hill PARK! Ask me how I know.

thebigbossyboss > jvirgs drives a Subaru 12/01/2014 at 20:19

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In BC the car behind is always at fault.

So you know, if they;re behind you and you roll back...that's their fault.

thebigbossyboss > whoarder is tellurium 12/01/2014 at 20:21

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Yeah. I find my clutch slips on hills more, because I am harder on the gas. I must be doing something right though since I've gone 110,000 kms on my clutch.

Kailand09 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 12/01/2014 at 20:23

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thanks man!

Kailand09 > jvirgs drives a Subaru 12/01/2014 at 20:24

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awesome thanks. This is as I suspected, just needed further confirmation I was correct.

Kailand09 > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 12/01/2014 at 20:25

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This is a really good tactic you have there, I plan to test it out tomorrow hahaha. Thanks man!!

Also yeah, I thought that didn't sound right.

Kailand09 > Dsscats 12/01/2014 at 20:26

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Yeah this is what I hope, I just want to avoid the completely inaccurate and bad habits from the start!

Kailand09 > thebigbossyboss 12/01/2014 at 20:27

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ROFL. Dude I'm paranoid and second-check my hand brake any time I park. I'm worried it will roll away on a flat surface even though I know it won't, and that I also engaged the hand brake anyway.

Leadbull > thebigbossyboss 12/01/2014 at 20:28

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Some other idiot who's definitely not you forgot to do so.

Kailand09 > JGrabowMSt 12/01/2014 at 20:29

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Luckily my street I live on is a pretty good incline, so I can just practice right outside my house haha.

thebigbossyboss > Leadbull 12/01/2014 at 20:29

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Correct. It would be my ex fiancee who left it to roll down the hill.

Kailand09 > I own dead car brands only 12/01/2014 at 20:30

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Yes, that's how I know when to shift of modulate the clutch for things like reverse or slowly pulling into a parking space.

Learned from iRacing of course lol

Leadbull > thebigbossyboss 12/01/2014 at 20:30

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Well, dang.

Jayhawk Jake > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:33

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1st: don't linger too long, but some slip is almost always necessary.

2nd: Yes on both points, but once you're comfortable you'll probably be fast enough to keep the car from rolling back. Not that I'm on hills that often, but I know where my clutch engages so I can have it out to the engagement point while my foot is still on the brake so by the time I reach the throttle the transmission is engaged enough to not roll.

I'd recommend finding an empty parking lot with enough grade for your car to roll backwards and practice controlling it. I do this on the street to entertain myself at lights sometimes, but start in an empty lot. Let off the brake, let the car roll, 'catch it', move forward slightly, repeat. As you get comfortable try to move quickly enough to not roll back

Also, doesn't the ST have hill hold assist? I think it's a setting in Sync. That should hold the brakes for you to get started on a hill. My car has it and I hate it, but you might like it.

Jayhawk Jake > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 12/01/2014 at 20:35

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I live somewhere with no hills but drove to somewhere with steep hills. Got stuck at a light on one of the steepest with an assclown on my bumper. That made me nervous. I tried the roll back a bit to scare them trick but the hill was so steep I was scared to let go of the brake enough to roll more than a few inches

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:36

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If you own that specific gear lever you have hill assist.

Jayhawk Jake > thebigbossyboss 12/01/2014 at 20:37

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No joke. I've forgetten the handbrake more in my manual car than I ever did in automatics. My car rolled across a parking lot once. No damage, but it was pretty funny in hindsight

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:37

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There are a bunch of little tricks/tips that you will learn. Another thing to consider is that you can sit at a stop light and not need to be on the brakes. Meanwhile, everyone else has their brakes engaged and brake lights on. So, if it's getting dark, I'll look in my rearview for the car approaching and keep my foot on the brake just so they are not confused and know that I am stationary. Also, if I'm coasting to a stop, I will sometimes do the same and tap the brakes just to let people know I am slowing down.

Lastly, get in the habit of parking with your e-brake on and your car in gear. Just, be careful. I started doing this when I first bought my car, and ended up starting the damn thing with my arm reaching in. Cut my arm, and even worse, watched my car run into a gate. Some things you learn the hard way. Learn from out mistakes.

And, I know it's debated, but if you're at a stop light in the front, it's acceptable to fully engage the clutch and leave it in first. I know some will argue against this, but it's only wearing out the throwout bearing, which will take a very long time to need replacement as opposed to the clutch.

Jayhawk Jake > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:38

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Get in the habit of leaving it in gear too. I usually forget myself, but it's another safeguard

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Jayhawk Jake 12/01/2014 at 20:38

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Just pull the e-brake, slowly let off the clutch, and wait for the car to squat (if RWD), then release the handbrake, and get on the gas. Sometimes, you are going to have to slip the clutch. Just try to minimize those times.

I own dead car brands only > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 20:40

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Interesting. I never did because im profoundly Deaf so obviously i couldnt. Never had an issue. I drove the family farm truck with a broken tach 100 miles a day for several months. Just relied on feel.

Jayhawk Jake > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 12/01/2014 at 20:42

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Oh, I was fine, and I used the handbrake. But that was the one time I legitimately got nervous in my manual car. I actively avoided another steep hill later that day

Kailand09 > Jayhawk Jake 12/01/2014 at 20:56

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Only if it is on a hill or at all times?

Kailand09 > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. 12/01/2014 at 20:58

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Um?? Yes I do, how do I use this. Lol

JGrabowMSt > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 21:10

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Ultimately, what you should never forget is that a clutch is cheaper than hitting the car behind you. If you end up replacing the clutch, it's not that bad. Worse things have happened.

F1 was cool once > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 21:28

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TL;DR - look at the bold parts :) Otherwise, behold, a wall o' text!

Some definitions might be worthwhile here. Different terms means different things to different people. I think the term "slipping the clutch" has a negative connotation, especially given that a "slipping clutch" (i.e.a clutch that is worn and no longer engages fully) is generally understood to be a bad thing. It's also often used in discussion of the best way to launch a manual transmission car, that is to say start as fast as possible such as in a drag race - as in dump vs slip. Obviously in this case slipping it is going to cause a lot of wear on your clutch, especially if you get it wrong.

However, in its most basic definition - the state of the clutch being partially engaged - every manual transmission driver slips the clutch every time they drive on the road. There is no other way to do it.

So to your first question: what you're doing sounds fine. As you get used to driving a manual, and to your particular car, it'll become second nature. You do indeed have to slip the clutch to some extent when taking off from a stop - the only way to engage it without some slipping is to sidestep it, which would likely prove controversial at stoplights. It's not clear what your co-worker means - the revs are always going to drop as you engage the clutch, precisely because the engine starts to "get taxed" i.e. goes from having no load to being under load.

Visualise that there are three states for the clutch - not engaged (in), engaging, and engaged (out). Your aim is to balance the throttle and the clutch to minimise the amount of time you spend in the "engaging" phase while retaining a smooth takeoff.

- Smooth clutch engagement but low engine speed and you'll bog (drop the engine out the rev range where it's producing sufficient torque to move the car at a reasonable pace) or even stall

- Good engine speed for a normal takeoff but too quick on the clutch and you'll "kangaroo" start (i.e. lurch forward) and probably eventually stall

- High engine speed but slow clutch uptake and you'll get a burning clutch smell (this is often what people mean when they say "slipping the clutch")

- High engine speed and quick on the clutch and you'll (usually) get wheelspin (or traction control..)

The only one of these you might ever do on purpose is the last one...

Anyway, the "engaging" (i.e. slipping) phase is the part that wears the clutch (specifically the friction material) and the reason that it is a consumable (in the same way that brake pads are a consumable). But it's designed to do that and should last you many tens of thousands of miles.

Once you're in motion, you can minimise wear to your clutch (and your drivetrain as a whole) by changing swiftly and matching your revs on downshifts, but you're probably not to that point yet. Get the basics right first.

To the second question, no, don't do either of those things. Hold the car on the handbrake while the car is stationary. When it's time to start moving, let the clutch out as normal until the bite point (i.e. when you feel the car trying to move forward) and then release the handbrake. Easy. The car should never roll back under any circumstance. As you get more experience under your belt, you will have to use this technique less and less, because on a normal hill the car will stay still long enough for you to move off the brake and onto the throttle. It's still a good technique to have around if you find yourself in San Francisco or whatever though. It's also good in grassroots competition (auto-x, rally-x, drag etc) because it lets you set the revs and clutch position for an ideal launch without having to worry about jumping from the brake to the throttle.

Hope that helps. It's a thing of beauty when it all comes together.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 21:35

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I always leave my cars in gear, usually 3rd.

Kailand09 > F1 was cool once 12/01/2014 at 21:35

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Thanks for the in depth post!

I definitely am enjoying the process of getting better at it. I'm by no means a jerky driver, but I'm not experienced either. Great tips!

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Jayhawk Jake 12/01/2014 at 21:37

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I'm the opposite. I always leave the car in gear, but have trouble remembering to actually pull the handbrake. Which is my habit from track days, since you never pull it when coming off track unless you want to weld your pads to the rotors.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Jayhawk Jake 12/01/2014 at 21:39

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In your Sonic? If the hill was that steep, we have hill-assist. You don't go anywhere. I think it kicks on for anything more than 5 degrees, as long as you come to a full stop first.

Jayhawk Jake > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver 12/01/2014 at 22:12

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Yeah, except it doesn't always activate. It's finniky

Jayhawk Jake > Kailand09 12/01/2014 at 22:19

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Only needed on a hill, but it doesn't hurt at all times

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Kailand09 12/02/2014 at 00:38

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For the first: It really depends. If it dips down it's not a big deal, besides the fact you're being more efficient. If you add gas, you run the risk of chirping the tires a bit, but no big deal there either

For the second: I say go with technique 2. Technique one will wear out your clutch faster. What I do on hills is put the car in neutral and pull the handbrake. When the light turns green, I put the car in 1st, start off and when the car starts to pull forward, I use my shifter hand (now moved to the handbrake) to drop the handbrake and set off.

Axial > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 12/02/2014 at 01:26

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Sitting at the biting point for a half-second isn't the problem. Some people actually use the engine at the idle catch point to hold their car in place on the hill tough...sans brakes. That's what it sounds like was suggested to the OP.

This is bad. Do not do this, ever.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Axial 12/02/2014 at 01:55

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no, the op is comparing between using the biting point to keep the car from rolling backwards (which is fine for short periods of time) or to release the brake pedal and let it roll backwards while engaging the clutch.

engaging the clutch in a forward gear while the car is moving backwards is going to cause more damage than letting sit for half a second on the biting point.

crowmolly > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 12/02/2014 at 09:25

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Fraction of a second? He is talking about using the throttle and slipping the clutch to hold the car steady on a hill at a stoplight. That could be 5-30 seconds or so.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Kailand09 12/02/2014 at 12:16

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Personally:

1. Depends. Having driven small manual VW's with both TDI and 2.5, The TDI allows me to just let out the clutch quickly, since it has enough torque to dealwith it. In the 2.5, I either slip the clutch or the wheels depending on my mood; it just doesn't have enough torque off idle.

2. I do one of 2 things. Handbrake, on a particularly steep hill, or let out the clutch with the brakes on until I feel the engine/clutch take some strain off the brakes. Then off brakes/on gas/dump clutch fully.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > crowmolly 12/02/2014 at 17:49

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oh lol. i completely skipped over the stop light part, i thought he only meant when taking off.

F1 was cool once > Kailand09 12/02/2014 at 20:22

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You're welcome, it was fun deconstructing it. The great thing about driving a MT car is that it's pretty easy to get from beginner to "good" to "expert", but you can always get better. I will say that if you aren't rev matching downshifts (i.e. blipping the throttle) at the moment, at least start thinking about it as you drive. It's a good way to reduce stress on your drivetrain, it makes for a smoother ride and puts you in better control of weight transfer as you change down.

Kailand09 > F1 was cool once 12/02/2014 at 20:30

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Thanks, I have been trying to do my best at it, still need to get the hang of it sometimes. I also still need to start off from a stop smoother, I'm trying to balance smooth and limiting the clutch slippage.

I did get a few perfect rev matches though today, I was happy!

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Kailand09 12/02/2014 at 22:05

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I guess I'm the only person on here that uses first gear and his clutch stop "idle" with thick traffic on steep hills. I usually avoid it and just roll back if I have to, but sometimes the asshole behind you is too damn close. I'm not too skilled with the parking brake method (pickups don't get the handy center lever either!).